David Lewis, interviewed by Ann Sunahara, 12 September 1977 Interviewer Ann Sunahara Interviewee David Lewis Transcriber Sakura Taji Audio Checker Sakura Taji XML Encoder Sakura Taji

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 September 12, 1977 Cassette Tapes oral_history_lewi43_1977-09-12.mp3 0:29:30 LOI Navigation Taxonomy Taxonomy for site navigation CollectionsOral Histories LOI Document Type Taxonomy Taxonomy of document types Primary SourceA primary source document.Oral HistoryResponsibility TaxonomyIntervieweeA person, family or organization responsible for creating or contributing to a resource by responding to an interviewer, usually a reporter, pollster, or some other information gathering agent.InterviewerA person, family, or organization responsible for creating or contributing to a resource by acting as an interviewer, reporter, pollster, or some other information gathering agent.Markup EditorA person or organization performing the coding of SGML, HTML, or XML markup of metadata, text, etc.ProofreaderA person who corrects printed matter.TranscriberA person, family, or organization contributing to a resource by changing it from one system of notation to another. English - Canadian Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

David Lewis describes the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (CCF) Party – members of cabinet in 1942, and the great hero Angus MacInnis who had logic and courage, was principled. He describes the BC party being divided, that there was a genuine sense of fear. He names those who spoke up about the demonstrations and the need for protection of Japanese Canadians. Three divisive issues of the CCF party: 1) mishandling the Japanese Canadian issue 2) hysteria of fear 3) the local situation with racist policies and politicians. Insights given into Harold Winch and McNeil’s personal stances on issues, Frank J. McKenzie’s stance, Grace MacInnis. He compares the impressions of Diefenbaker to that of Mackenzie King . They discuss the oriental franchise issue where, in 1935, Ian Mackenzie ran large advertisements in papers saying a vote for CCF, meant a vote for Orientals.

This oral history is from the Nikkei National Museum and Cultural Centre's Kage Collection. Accession No. 2021-7-1-1-3. It describes the experience of exile.

document created Uh, with the caveat that this is from memory and mostly reliable. Partly because I had seen some of the material or notes on the material (?). Then I start with the last point first. It was not any difficult to (?) at the federal, at the national level on this subject. There was no division in the ranks of the CCF and the (?) in the House which was smaller at the time. Consisted basically of seven people. (?) matter (?) Coldwell , Douglas , McInnis , (?)... Well, I forget the other two (?) take your time. They were all (?). Yeah. (?) Mackenzie. That’s right. They also pointed (?) positions. The great hero, as far as I’m concerned, was Angus McInnis . The British Columbians (?) that myself at the time mumbles . Tremendous logic and courage. He was as principled as anyone else in the party could be including (?). He was less one dimensional (?) principles surrounded mainly at that time. Not always of course but at that time mumbles . In the BC party there was division. Yeah. A series of so-called left-wingers. With (?) members such as Colin Cameron . Am I right? Um... I have not been able to- Now, there is however, a very important difference between the divisions and the CCF and the attitude of the Liberals under mainly Ian Mackenzie . Mackenzie is a racist (?). (?) He was absolutely under the mumbles as far as I was concerned. Much of the opposition to the official party policy because officials they had policies adopted at conventions. That’s why I’m a little, I must look into it myself (?) because past policies at that time (?) supporting the Japanese (?) in ‘44 as well. The reason (I sided?) with the CCF with the official policy was the genuine fear. Not so much on the Japanese attack on the west coast as for the disturbances the Japanese were bound to create internally on the west coast itself. I remember people, I don’t really remember exactly what they stood but they (?) Alfred Turner of a decent fellow (?) and others like that were doing not so much of fear of attack (?) people who had been (?) outburst of the demonstration of the (?). Protect across the (?)? Yes, (?) I think they were all, I think I am right in remembering they were all concerned (?) Japanese when there was (?) doubt of rather than just yanked out as if it was the case to start with. Shot somewhere with no (fail?) return to, you know, I (?) Socialists are people (?). That, (?) one says do with a question I had in mind which was that both MacNeil and (?) supported the (?) Defence Committee in (?) for evacuation after the decision was made. They didn’t know that small laugh . And I wondered why. Of course, in MacNeil ’s records on immigration. Well I think it would be a difference of... if I can say this to you without attribution because, may I? Yeah. Just from your background. Sure. I- Let’s assume I can trust your (?) remember what I’m saying (?). There was a difference between Winch and MacNeil . Winch was an emotional, he is still but a very emotional man. In those years, he changed the (?) when he came to Ottawa. But in those years when he was still young, he was terribly irrational. A very great mind virtually untrained, technically speaking. But a very, very good mind and a very quick mind. And very decent and very committed. But if something struck him, he became irrational about it. And he was mumbles he was very much (?) this is one of the big problems I got to (?) I digress, too far to presume to write down what I mumbles . I don’t mind the parts where I can say honestly, (?) nice things. Parts where I have to be honest mumbles . I was (?) your opinion on the (?). Yes. Winch was very emotional. But if he got hold of a point, the major objective was to prove himself right. Mm. You know there are so many people who do that rather than (?) the point. And he would get himself into an emotional pitch. All of which is (?) to saying that having a (?) conclusion when something had to be done, Winch was the kind of person who would go over everything, write everything down (there?). Otherwise justified (?). Those days (?) were speaking very left-wing and revolutionary with full arms. For the same reason, the moment you hit a corner with a rational conversation was different. You put him up against an audience which was (?) to his demagoguery and away it went. And so Winch was a (?) strident and he’s a (?) on the Japanese (?). And the (?) was, because in MacNeil ’s case it was totally a concern of the internal situation in British Columbia . MacNeil had been in the First World War. He was a very patriotic Canadian and almost a pacifist. Almost strongly opposed to the war as the (?) was. I’m not quite sure where he would have stood having been re-elected in 1940 because he was elected in ‘35 (?). Mhm. I had the impression he was in BC during this period. That’s right he was. Is he still alive? No, he died just within the year. I’ll give you another name, person from (?) more than anyone else to the matter. Um, in Vancouver though. (?) by mail. Oh mumbles . That’s, that was basically a really theoretical sort of intellectually (?) a six year position to three. It was a position against mishandling the Japanese. You know, they had the right to (citizenship?). That was Angus McInnis ’ (?) that I think basically majority of the thinking (?) almost no support outside. And the others were divided into two. The hysterical, which included (?) remember. I can’t give you the exact names but I do remember astonish... remember being absolutely knocked out by the left-wing Marxists who were on that side. Self proclaimed left-winged Marxists. \That doesn’t surprise me. The American (?) evacuation in the states- Well they of course, after June ‘41. They did it after June, whatever the date was. Yes. (?) was attacked. Mhm. (Everything?) went through Canada too in favour of (?). And that (?) the people that would be characterized by, namely by MacNeil who worked for a good deal of local situations. The person, if my memory serves me right, who was active, I can’t remember if he was already secretary... Yes he may have been. (?) I’ve been thinking about now that I remember, Herbert Gargrave was elected (?) election of ‘41 or ‘42 and he was probably (?) of Ian Mackenzie . There’s a lawyer called Frank McKenzie . M-C capital K I think. Not M-A-C or M-C. F J McKenzie I think. Who was either Provincial Secretary at the time or, I know he was the Provincial Secretary (?) without my notes I can’t give you the exact years. But even if he wasn’t, he was very, very active on the editorial board or (?) three. Frank has a very good memory. He’s a careful thinker and very cautious thinker and a very careful observer who hasn’t had the same reasons for forgetting some of the details that I had (?) other parts of the country. (?) Mumbles all those people. Anything that he says that contradicts anything I said (?). Okay. (?) confidence in his (?). May I use your name in my writing? Yes you may. Tell him (?) if you want to (?) better. I’ve heard of his name before. He was secretary... I know he was certainly the secretary at the time. (?) find out, I think my researchers to look it up quickly. (?) a list so you can find him. He really, Grace MacInnis (?) and around- Yes. (?) always did. (all dead?). However Winch is still around if you want to see him. But Frank McKenzie , if I were doing the research I would consider him my primary source. And then I would take his advice from (?) not only the CCF (?) other people if you were interested. He’s a good primary source. Would also give me an accurate reflection of perhaps with all the sentiments in BC . Oh yes. Oh yes, he will. He was very aware of the whole thing. Very keen. In Ottawa was there that much awareness (? after Pearl Harbour )? No, I don't think so. Except in the... in fact, I know not. Because (?) in parliament on a number of occasions, publications by MacInnis and Coldwell . If you look up, if you haven’t already done so. I was aware of that. I was more interest in the party- The public, (?) and the no, no. Ian (says?) the Conscription Crisis going on. (Is?) my impression by reading King ’s diary (?) something- Out there. I cannot recall (?) suggested calling (?) which if one had time, one will quickly decide to see editorial comments in the Citizen. Yes. Or the Toronto Star . There wasn’t one I remember. I have no memory of any newspaper reaction. I’ve always assumed (?) as I went through the other day (?) something else. It might’ve been in the Globe and Mail . (?) but I really doubt it. The western papers were hysterical. Mumbles. From all their suspicions. Yes. They were really hysterical. No, the (?) here I remember these, I came to Ottawa at the end of ‘35 (?). And very quickly met people mumbles a whole bunch of people and met with him quite often. Not sure exactly (?) I never remember discussing this subject et cetera. When I raised it (?). Mm. Because we were having (?) with (?). Maybe that’s why there wasn’t too much mumbles . It certainly is strange if it had any (?). I wonder because I knew the provincial position was different from the federal position and I was wondering (?) falling out with the (?). Oh yes, sure there was (?) depends on (?) the phrase. We were mad at each other on that subject. Oh quite. I quite recognize that. ‘Cause there was no falling object (?). I did recognize that too. John Diefenbaker took great (?) to explain to you if it’s possible to be friends with someone that you don’t agree with (in the parliamentary?). Small laugh. He... yes. Nothing, let me warn you about something. I know (?). I know I read excerpts on so I know what exactly you said (?). I wrote a few of the (?). I’ve heard- I was so... I couldn’t remember and I was so (?) when I (?) on the telephone, I didn’t say in the review I’m telling you, I didn’t (?) my memory. I (?). And I said Stanley would do the research (?) independently on (?). We went through indexes (?)- Right. When I interviewed Mr. Knowles , he wanted to know what ( Diefenbaker ?) said and told him (?) toned it down in his book. Both give a small laugh. Because he told me he voted with (?). Not that he makes speeches (?). That’s not true. Ah, the (?) they don’t say in the (board?). About three Conservatives or something similar. Well (?) wouldn’t show that. (?) wouldn’t (?) either (?) adopted on division which was- I'm sorry, it’s the newspapers that (?). Ah. They were adopted on division. But there was one (?) where I think he was on the wrong side, I think. I could be confusing him with mumbles . Mhm. Anyways, the story's completely out of the (?). (?) completely (?). I used to (?) verify Mackenzie’s, Ian Mackenzie ’s (?). Other sources have tried to tell me Ian Mackenzie mumbles . Which I found quite hard to believe after reading (?). No, I think I would write this if I were writing. I would say that he was capable of taking any position for political purposes. (?) King . Yeah, with a little more sharpness or a little less of diluting principles to (vote?) on. But he really felt it. He really meant it. He... you have a long history which I’m sure you cannot cross. The question for example of Oriental franchise and Ian Mackenzie was responsible for ads way back in the first federal election in 1935 or the first provincial election in ‘34 or ‘33 ‘or ‘37. I forget. Large ads in the paper (?) Orientals, vote CCF . And he was the main protagonist of the anti-Oriental vote regardless of their citizenship. ‘Cause I always felt, well he didn’t say much about himself because he didn’t need to (?) around. He, well his papers amaze me with the intensity of some of the things he wrote. Mind you, he was a, he was to give you a little bit of what I (?) I missed a number of occasions mumbles flattering in those years (?). He was a little bit like Winch in that respect. Mhm. He was a very emotional (?) as Winch was an emotional Latin-American, I don’t know. Mumbles some Latin blood which made Winch, which I thought, an attractive person. But this Scottish (?) was this emotionally hard to (?). He did go, perhaps (?) thought his expression. Right. I had the impression (?) little stops- That’s right. He was a racist. As I said, I state that not only from the basis of his attitude to the Japanese- Right. ... Orientals. Through the history (?) as far as he’s concerned. Right. Did he... there was one (?). Did the CCF people, director of the speech (?) Mackenzie King (?) of parliament in 1942? I have never come across it. I don’t think any record was kept by the CCF party. I (?) because I know from Mackenzie’s diary, Mackenzie King ’s diary that that’s when he announced the Japanese would be evacuated. I was intrigued to know other members of the House noted such things and diaries. Nothing surprising other than (?) which (?) told me about. I also knew a great deal of US - Canada cooperation discussed in that session. (Wallace’s?) papers. And I was wondering, I’ve been trying to find out whether King said it was enough (?) conforming the policy of the states deciding this. That secret session with the (?) was elected, I think or was it? Yes. I asked (?) and he said before. The thought that bell rings I don’t know- Missing audio. 00:22:56.813 Actually, I don’t have much else to cover. (?) sorry I can’t give you more. There’s some notes I’ve looked at that I could go over the details maybe. But you’ve probably seen all that stuff. Yeah, I was thinking I could ask one of your research assistants maybe (?). Mumbles they can look it up (?). For suggestions because I was (?) in the public archives. No (?) the Japanese. Mumbles correspondence (?) he seems to be very (?) Small laugh . Yeah... Dr. Whitehorn and I went through his stuff. There was (?) little on these avenues but not a lot very much. Maybe because Angus (?) those things. The BC Federationist as they were then called, and sure mumbles . I think that may have been the name. (?) sure to have it in Vancouver somewhere. Mumbles. Yeah (?) CCF publications in the CCF papers. Now there’s several (?) publications. Here you mean? Yes. I have a feeling that may be (pamphlet?) or things in newspapers. Ah, right, right. In fact, I have more than a few. Mumbles. I’ll check that later in BC . So I don’t think you’ll but I think the paper then was called Federationist. Or was that the paper of the BC Federation? Anyway- I have (?)- Anyway the BC CCF have papers (?) to you I’m sure. Because I think there was an extended correspondence on the letter (?), et cetera. Missing audio. 00:25:14.021 And it might also be of some use to you to indicate dates for looking at (?). I’m looking through the (Vancouver) Sun for the period. The worst of the (?) three was the (?) Herald. What was it called? Oh the newspaper? The newspaper (title/type?). My memory is (?) particularly (?). Yes. In my thesis (?) discovered documents so I had gone through the Sun more to read the situation in Vancouver . But I didn’t investigate other Vancouver, Victoria papers. Mumbles federal government point of view. (?)- Missing audio. 00:26:02.375 Absolutely no (?). Ah, well not between any of my contacts. I am putting this to you on the basis of my travelling to British Columbia during the provincial campaign. Either ‘41 or ‘42. Mhm. Mumbles campaign in the mumbles . I can check the (?). I remember that very well. Two weeks mumbles City of Vancouver and so on. And I remember very distinctly, giving Ian Mackenzie and his (?) general attitude towards the Orientals. (?) for the Japanese (?) matter of the Oriental mumbles . So it was already being discussed. And getting large rounds of applause. Not a whimper, not a suggestion of criticism. Mumbles. Not a suggestion. Well I... the documents here in Ottawa have been (?). But the history of King after (?) National Security. It’s a mumbles in faith. Mumbles. You know, it reminds me of (?) just a few weeks (?) something else, reliving the 1970s. Mumbles. Even if you give people the best of faith the (?) get on. It’s very easy to (?) Prime Minister- Because parliament always (?) at that time mumbles . That is why I am terrified. I can sort of see my Japanese contacts in Quebec called french backlash. Working actually to produce better (?) French in other provinces. I am just praying that know-nothings don’t get out of hand on either side. Small laugh. I’m so glad you’ve confirmed that for me. I really don’t have much to talk about that. Alright.